Ep. 152 | Postpartum Anxiety: A Real Story of Intrusive Thoughts, Shame, and Getting Help

Here is the transcript from **Everyday Therapy** Episode 153, formatted for a text file with the "unknown" speaker labels removed.

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**Everyday Therapy - Episode 153 Transcript**

**00;00;00;25 - 00;00;21;09**
Welcome to Everyday Therapy, where simple and practical concepts of therapy meet your everyday life. Hosted by licensed marriage and family therapist Brett Cushing and doctor Karen Ryan, we're here to help you unlock tools and strategies you need to become the best version of yourself. Whether you're looking for guidance, inspiration, anecdotes, or actionable advice, you're in the right place.

**00;00;21;11 - 00;00;24;18**
Let's dive into everyday therapy.

**00;00;24;20 - 00;00;44;22**
Hello and welcome to another episode of Everyday Therapy. I am Doctor Karen Ryan, licensed psychologist, and I'm here with Christine, licensed marriage and family therapist. We are your regular co-hosts. We're happy to be here, and we have a special guest with us today. We have Rachel. And Rachel is going to share with us about her experience with postpartum anxiety.

**00;00;44;22 - 00;01;02;05**
And so today I'm going to have a conversation to hear her brave experience that she shares with us. And we're so thankful that she's here and willing to share her story because we think it's going to be really valuable for a lot of individuals. So, Rachel, hi. Welcome. We're so glad you're here. Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here.

**00;01;02;07 - 00;01;24;24**
And Rachel is here. She's not an expert on all things postpartum. She's an expert on her experience. And I think people kind of relate more to them and all of our clinical jargon sometimes. So thank you. Yes. Yeah. I'm happy to share more. My name is Rachel. As you said, I'm a graduate of the Mother Baby program at Sage Behavioral Health.

**00;01;24;26 - 00;01;53;00**
I started that program in 2023 when my first born, my son, he was about four months old, and I came to the program here because I had really severe postpartum anxiety and needed a lot of help. And so when you say postpartum program here, what's involved with that? Yeah. So it is an inpatient group counseling program is, I think, the best way to describe it.

**00;01;53;02 - 00;02;17;25**
And it was eight weeks, three hours a day, three days a week of group counseling. So we had an expert with us. It was all virtual and an expert would check in with us in these little groups, hear about how our weeks were going, hear about how our babies were, and then teach us coping skills for whatever postpartum stuff we were experiencing.

**00;02;17;25 - 00;02;38;11**
So tips about how to help your baby sleep. Tips about how to cope with lack of sleep. How to manage really volatile emotions and hard things. And so we were all learning together. Some of us had newborns like me, and some of the people there had multiple kids, some people had older kids, and we were all just needing some help in this group context.

**00;02;38;11 - 00;03;03;12**
So that's what the program was. So can I just real quick ask you what was it like for you starting the program? Did you have apprehension questions like, oh, this is not for me. Yeah. What was it like at the end? I was really nervous because I thought it meant that I was a bad mom. I thought like, oh, I must really have some severe problems and be an unfit mother if I need to be in group counseling to simply learn how to parent.

**00;03;03;14 - 00;03;25;13**
Like I thought, something's really wrong with me. But I knew I needed a lot of help because I had some. And I can talk about this more, but I was... I was not sleeping. I had some very scary, intrusive thoughts. And so I was scared to start, but I knew I needed to. I had a friend, thankfully, who had gone through the program a few years before me, and she sort of talked me down and was like, Rachel, no, this isn't a scare.

**00;03;25;13 - 00;03;42;04**
Like it's not a bad thing. This is a good thing for you to join. So you're not alone? I'm not alone. Mother has experienced this, and so I'm so thankful you had that friend who was able to say no. This is something so many mothers experience, and there are resources out. You don't have to figure this out alone. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

**00;03;42;07 - 00;04;06;05**
What were some of the things that you noticed that kind of helped you kind of reach out to that friend? Kind of whatever you're comfortable sharing your own experience. When you started to notice those anxiety symptoms and thinking, okay, this is a lot. This is hard. There were honestly about four. There were so many things, but I can pinpoint it to four things that sort of indicated to me, oh, I'm not doing well.

**00;04;06;07 - 00;04;25;12**
The first was I had a pretty traumatic birth with a lot of blood loss and a very big baby. And it was... it was not a very happy birth experience. So I'm starting out from that hard point already. Yeah. And then when my son was a few days old, he developed some pretty severe feeding issues with oral ties.

**00;04;25;12 - 00;04;44;27**
I had really delayed milk production. I got mastitis, and there was sort of this perfect storm of realizing, oh, on my own, I can't feed my baby, which is another big factor of I'm not a good mom because I can't feed my baby. Yes, and we sometimes set ourselves up against what is going to be like. We have these rules and then when it changes, that's really challenging.

**00;04;44;27 - 00;05;04;13**
I had these dreams of perfect breastfeeding and they all were dashed within days of giving birth. The third sort of big bad thing was a real severe lack of sleep. For the first three months of my son's life, I was getting about one hour of sleep a night. And my son only wanted to sleep on me and suckle for comfort.

**00;05;04;13 - 00;05;29;04**
He wouldn't take a pacifier, and it led to us doing a lot of unsafe sleep practices with me accidentally falling asleep, holding him in a chair. And honestly, the bad sleep led to the intrusive thoughts. That was the fourth big bad thing. I had a lot of scary thoughts of my son getting hurt accidentally, like, oh, what if I fall asleep in the chair and I'm holding him and he dies?

**00;05;29;06 - 00;05;49;04**
And so I would have panic attacks before nighttime? Because I was so scared to go through the nighttime experience with him. So I would have intrusive thoughts about him being hurt accidentally. And then I thought, well, what if it gets so bad that I hurt him on purpose? And then I'm clearly a bad mom because I'm thinking about hurting my child.

**00;05;49;07 - 00;06;08;23**
And so if I were to hurt my child, then I would have to hurt myself like, fair is fair. So I didn't... I didn't know that these thoughts could be dealt with. I just sort of thought, well, clearly I'm a bad mom. I have no bond with this kid and I am... I'm broken and there's nothing I can do.

**00;06;08;25 - 00;06;30;20**
That's one of the definitions of shame that I heard many years ago. There's something wrong with me that's not wrong with anybody. Yeah. So you're... you're isolated. Yeah. All you have are these thoughts that are going through your head. Yeah. Really intense. Intense thoughts, intense emotions, all these vulnerabilities. Is this what we refer to as baby blues, or is that different?

**00;06;30;24 - 00;06;51;28**
That's a great question. Baby blues are a little more short term, and they're from, as far as my understanding goes, just that sort of hormonal shift right after you give birth, you've got a couple weeks of sad volatility of maybe I'm crying a lot, I'm not sleeping. What have I done? Oh, God, what is this exactly? It's.

**00;06;52;01 - 00;07;12;08**
And then after a couple weeks it sort of regulates and you're like, hey, yeah, this is hard, but I can cope. What I was experiencing was I cannot cope. This is way too big and scary. And it was prolonged, to the point of interfering with my daily life. Like I was having a hard time, taking care of myself.

**00;07;12;08 - 00;07;36;04**
Like there were days where I would be nap trapped, you know, from waking up until going to bed, and I wouldn't shower. I could barely... I wasn't eating much. There were a lot of things, contributing to just an inability to care for myself, which I think is one of the key indicators of, hey, this has shifted from baby blues to something more like postpartum depression or anxiety.

**00;07;36;06 - 00;07;59;11**
Yeah. So that's how we know. Maybe it is... It's baby blues, maybe less intense symptoms. And then one of the things is to note, objectively, I can't do certain things. I need to do it function now that's objective that we can look at subjectively what got in the way. Like was it more of the sense of shame? No, I got to be able to do this.

**00;07;59;11 - 00;08;16;25**
I'm going to power through. Yeah, kind of it. There was a lot of a desire just to power through. I thought, okay, well, to be a good mom, I have to do certain things. I had a lot of really broken perspectives about breastfeeding in particular. So I thought, I have to exclusively breastfeed if I even dip into a can of formula.

**00;08;16;25 - 00;08;41;17**
I'm a bad mom. So in order for me to be a good mom, I have to exclusively breastfeed. That means, I guess I'm not getting up from this chair and I'm going to be... I'm going to sacrifice everything about me and my health for my son to have the best. I didn't understand that for my son to have the best, I also had to be a functioning and sane person.

**00;08;41;19 - 00;08;55;23**
Yeah. And you did such a beautiful job of explaining how it can all come together, right? And just be so challenging because we know when we don't sleep, we don't... we don't think clearly. We have function well, yes. And then when we're so busy trying to just care for him, you forget to eat and then you're not... don't have the nutri.

**00;08;55;23 - 00;09;13;23**
So you can see how it just all comes together. And I think I really appreciate kind of highlighting. And what does that feel like and sound like in your head. Yes. Right. And you did such a beautiful job of kind of highlighting what that can sound like. And I think you also mentioned something really important too. It's not just a shame, but we kind of morph into this all or nothing.

**00;09;13;23 - 00;09;37;09**
Thank you. Have to do everything just right. Yeah. And if I don't now I'm... there's the shame again. Now that person. So that also kind of sounds like anxiety. Yes. Can you talk about postpartum anxiety a little. Yes. Yes. So anxiety was my primary issue. It's a little different than postpartum depression. And it's excessive worry, not sadness.

**00;09;37;12 - 00;10;01;04**
So it was this constant worry about, what is going to happen at nighttime? How will I sleep, will I get. Yeah. What if he only sleeps for 20 minutes? Then I'm only going to sleep for ten minutes. And then it's just this compounding fear about every single situation in life. And it's... it's for me. It was all so centered around his safety.

**00;10;01;06 - 00;10;27;23**
Yeah. Like, what happens if I'm pushing him in the stroller and I trip? What happens if a car runs over my head? Like, I would entertain all of these thoughts about him dying or me dying, and it wouldn't just be. Gosh, that would be a bummer. I would spend hours teasing out the full story of what would happen if I died, creating that full narrative exactly all the way down to what would my funeral be like?

**00;10;27;24 - 00;11;04;06**
Oh, like it would go so far. So for me, that's that excessive worry, led to panic attacks. It led to lack of sleep. I was genuinely afraid to be alone with my son because I thought something bad might happen to him. Or me. And that's. Yeah. That anxiety was crippling. Yeah. For me. And I really appreciate you sharing and sharing what that felt like and what that sounded like, because my guess is, is now that you've been through the program and you are able to kind of like have that step back, what do you feel like you have learned now about that?

**00;11;04;06 - 00;11;22;01**
Yes, about those thoughts in particular. Like who I... what if I hurt my baby? Oh my goodness, I want to hurt my baby. Oh my goodness. And those thoughts that happen that feels so terrifying. Yeah. But we actually know are not... have no yes and are not any indication of love. So what do you feel like? You know, now that you feel like it's so helpful and important to know?

**00;11;22;01 - 00;11;42;01**
Great question. So now I know those are called intrusive thoughts. They are not bad. They are just thoughts. Thinking and intrusive thought is not the same as acting on an intrusive thought. And the most important thing I have learned to do when those thoughts come up is to just say, oh, I know what that is. Now that's just a thought, and I move past it.

**00;11;42;03 - 00;12;00;12**
I mean, my... my daughter, I have a second child now, my daughter, she's almost one year old and just a couple days ago I was walking with her by the stairs and I thought, what if I trip and fall down the stairs? And I went, well, that's not going to happen. So... and then I held the railing a little more tightly and just moved past it.

**00;12;00;14 - 00;12;18;09**
So now I know the thoughts are just thoughts. They don't mean I am going to act on them and you build up a tolerance for those. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's here. And my body isn't reacting and getting activated where I have to respond. You built up a tolerance for that and realized is here is going to. Yes yes, yes.

**00;12;18;09 - 00;12;35;12**
Wonderful. It's hard work. Yeah. Thank you. And good crap like does it... did it feel like it took you a while to get there? Oh yeah. Here's what I'm thinking of people saying like but my thoughts are so bad. But these are so terrible that they... they must mean I'm a terrible person. And so I'm wondering if you'd be willing to share.

**00;12;35;12 - 00;12;53;28**
Like, did it take you a while to believe that? Oh, it took months, months and years, in fact. So it was... I mean, the mother baby program was January 2023 is when I started, and now it's, you know, three years later and I'm still navigating this. But yes, the tolerance it took months to build up to for sure.

**00;12;53;28 - 00;13;14;14**
Yeah, yeah. So if you're listening and feeling well, that doesn't apply to me. It absolutely applies to you as well. Right. And so people might be listening saying what about this postpartum depression? That's where I am. Yes. Talk about that a little bit maybe. Yeah. You experienced that. I experienced a bit of postpartum depression. It wasn't my primary experience.

**00;13;14;16 - 00;13;35;13**
My understanding of postpartum depression is excessive sadness. It's when sorrow becomes so prolonged that it's interfering with your daily life. Like, I can't get up and shower. I'm crying all the time. I can't care for my baby. I'm going to let my baby cry with a dirty diaper for, you know, 20, 30 minutes. Because I just can't bear the thought of getting out of bed.

**00;13;35;16 - 00;13;55;03**
I was nap trapped by my son a lot. You explain what that means? Was nap trapping is when, your baby will only sleep on you. So you are trapped by the napping baby. So I would... I would be sitting in our chair middle of the day texting my husband. Hey, can you bring me some water? Hey, I need you to put a different show on.

**00;13;55;03 - 00;14;20;22**
I dropped the remote like, yeah, come help me. So that's nap. Proper beautiful, wonderful little thing holding you hostage. Yes, exactly. But, yes. Postpartum depression. Just interfering with your ability to care for yourself or your baby because you're so sad. Yeah, and I really like that you're highlighting that each woman's experience can be different, and it might be primarily anxiety.

**00;14;20;22 - 00;14;41;01**
It's really running the show, and then you have anxiety. So like, you feel a little down or can be more depression. And so it's really highlighting that it can present differently. Yes. Yes, I did, a part of postpartum depression too is an inability to bond with your baby. And I did feel some of that, too, I think, because my first couple months were so challenging.

**00;14;41;03 - 00;14;59;01**
I would say for the first six weeks of my son, but after he was born, I just sort of viewed him as this thing I had to care for. Yeah, there wasn't a lot of, like, I knew I wanted him to be alive. I knew I wanted to care for him, but he was sort of just this thing in our lives.

**00;14;59;01 - 00;15;17;24**
He was really new, very strange to have a baby. And, it took a long time for me to feel that intense bond of love for him. What do you want people to know who might be experiencing that? If they feel like I'm not bonding or I had trouble bonding? But do you want them to know about that?

**00;15;17;26 - 00;15;42;16**
It's similar to the intrusive thoughts like you can... you can feel this and it's okay. It's... there's an element of it that's normal. Like I think a lot of women or fathers feel that and they're embarrassed and they're scared. But let's be real, this person exists who has never existed before, and now they're in your home keeping you from sleeping and eating and, preventing you from doing a lot of things in your life that you could do before.

**00;15;42;16 - 00;16;02;11**
Like, I think it's okay for that bond to take time. Yeah. I remember with my own pregnancy that I had some anxiety and I had hypertension, and so I didn't realize how much that was impacting my body. And then all of a sudden that went down. And then I was when I was like, oh, okay, there we go.

**00;16;02;12 - 00;16;18;09**
Yeah, literally like, I could feel it in my body and even like, felt like in my heart of like, okay, now I'm connecting. Here we go. But it took a while, right? Yes. And I think if I can just throw this in from a man's perspective it does affect men. We're not going to get into that today.

**00;16;18;09 - 00;16;37;11**
But I know that men can feel that way too. The mom has had all this time I mean the baby's been a part of their body. And so there's some bonding, there's some connection. And for the man to feel like this intruder has come in and taken my wife away, taken her own life. Yeah. And it's really hard.

**00;16;37;11 - 00;16;57;27**
So I just wanted to throw that in there that it does, it even affects men on a hormonal basis. To me, that doesn't mean he's a weak man. He's a normal man. That's what happens when babies are so much work. It's just so many functional tasks where there's so little that it really is task oriented, like do, do, do, do, do.

**00;16;57;27 - 00;17;20;24**
And so I think that's just an important piece to remember for the whole family. Right. What about some of the myths? I think we're identifying and addressing some of the myths related to postpartum, and what... what other ones are out there. Do you think that we haven't touched on exposure? There's definitely a myth that you have if you're going to have postpartum anxiety or depression that happens, right away.

**00;17;20;27 - 00;17;42;04**
Some people get it months after their children are born, whether just it comes up unexpectedly or there's a hard circumstance that sort of leads to it beginning, it can be delayed. And when it starts, can I just ask, when did you start? In our mother baby program at Stafford? Yeah, my son was four months old when I started the program.

**00;17;42;07 - 00;18;09;08**
Yep. Yeah. Other myths you can think of that might be helpful and relevant. Yeah. There's definitely a myth that these feelings will go away on their own. Like, oh, if I just give it enough time, I'll feel better, like, I... I felt that way. I mean, that's part of why I waited so many months to join the program is I just sort of thought, oh, with time things will improve, but that you also thought, this may never go away.

**00;18;09;15 - 00;18;24;03**
Yeah. So do you think that too? Yep. Yep. That's considered. Yeah, yeah. And you highlighted and you talked about this a little bit about Oh shoot. I last seen gonna come back to me and you mentioned.

**00;18;24;05 - 00;18;55;13**
There were so many things that came up for me too. And I keep losing it. There's so many questions and such limited time. Yeah. What about other myths? Maybe you encountered personally from other people? Did you? Or maybe an interpretation that you might have carried the myth yourself, maybe interact with somebody and you, you misread the way they interact with you or something like that and is maybe a myth, your part or any other encounters that were kind of invalidating for you.

**00;18;55;15 - 00;19;18;08**
Did you ever kind of have people? Did you ever assume people looked at you and thought, you know, she should be doing better and like you did? Yeah. Or did you say dumb things? Yes. Yeah. I mean, did you ever have that? Karen, where people do you remember anybody saying that to you? Because I know for some men, some men do experience this.

**00;19;18;11 - 00;19;39;05**
It's... they... they feel as though I'm supposed to be joyous. Yeah. And they're not happy at all about this. And I've had men ask me like, why aren't my kids? Or are you in baby bliss? Yeah, well, that's a really wonderful time line. Like, why didn't anybody tell me it was gonna be this bad for so many opinions, right?

**00;19;39;05 - 00;19;58;09**
Where? Like, you shared a little bit, Rachel, about the idea of, you know, you know, breast is best. You must breastfeed and you must do this and and, like, sometimes those kind of expectations or opinions can feel like those are facts and that that's truth. And that is absolutely oftentimes not the case. And it's opinion. And I remember what I was going to ask.

**00;19;58;09 - 00;20;29;07**
Thank you for helping me friends. You shared that one of the things that you felt like might have contributed to your anxiety was kind of your difficult birth experience. And I'm wondering if you feel like a lot of times that will be minimized or won't be acknowledged as a significant factor, when sometimes we know the birthing experiences very different, like most of us aren't in the hospital often and aren't, you know, in that vulnerable kind of state and then don't, it's a huge thing for our bodies to go through emotionally and physically.

**00;20;29;07 - 00;20;56;05**
So I'm wondering if you had anything you wanted to share about that, and just the kind of impact of how your birth experience might impact you and your mental health after? I mean, birth is one of the most insane experiences a body can go through. The amount of blood loss I had was staggering. And the amount of medical intervention after the fact was so minimal.

**00;20;56;07 - 00;21;16;12**
For so for me, I lost a lot of blood, and it was just sort of like, well, that happened. And moving on. Now, here's your baby. So I definitely thought birth would go one way and it didn't. And I know a lot of women have, you know, our birth plans that we write out and we hand them to the midwife or the doctor and we say, I want this, this and this.

**00;21;16;14 - 00;21;37;12**
And the reality is you have no control over any of it. It's, It's. Yeah. What do you wish would have happened? So after, you know, you're really difficult birth and that blood loss, like what would have served you, what would have been helpful. Good question.

**00;21;37;15 - 00;21;47;02**
It would have been helpful for someone to say like, wow, that was really hard. Honestly, it... it.

**00;21;47;04 - 00;22;05;27**
I'm on the spot a little. I'm trying to think through rate. I think it really is... It's kind of what I was trying to get at before too. Like, what are you experiencing from other people? And I think other people watch this and they're sort of like, hey, I'm concerned. Yeah. You know, maybe I'm looking at Rachel.

**00;22;05;27 - 00;22;27;05**
I'm concerned, but, you know, not going to say anything. Transgressing a boundary. Would that have been helpful, do you think? Because I think people are listening to and they're saying, what do I do if I see a loved one like this? And what might you say to them? How could they help somebody who's going through this? And I think you did a nice job, like validate.

**00;22;27;07 - 00;22;45;27**
Just validate. Yes, yes, this is really hard, man. Did you ever anybody ever have it. Oh yeah. I take you to then say like, you know, you really should do this and kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People definitely wanted me to be happy. People wanted to be like, well, it's going to be okay. Like it's you're going to be okay.

**00;22;45;29 - 00;23;12;09**
But the reality is I needed help. I needed, I needed people to come alongside me in community and say, hey, you're not alone. We can walk through this with you. It's a bummer that the experience was what it was, but here's how you can move past it and grow now. Yeah, so guys just had a phone call last night with somebody, and she's been interacting with somebody who going through a lot of, mental health struggles, crises.

**00;23;12;09 - 00;23;33;14**
And that person said, you know, the worst thing people tell me it's going to be, yeah, it just felt like the most invalidating thing. So I'm glad you highlighted I wonder what we could say in light of our mother baby program that we have here at Sage's. What could we say to people that are struggling instead of, it's going to be okay?

**00;23;33;16 - 00;23;56;05**
Yeah. What tips do you have? Yeah, yeah. Individuals, right. We know we've got these great resources that you're not alone. You have to figure it alone. And if you're trying to like, okay, what can I do to help myself get through this time? What advice do you have? Oh, I have so much advice. I think the first piece of advice I would give to someone is advocate for your needs.

**00;23;56;08 - 00;24;13;14**
You are your biggest advocate. And no one else knows what it is exactly you need. So if you need a shower and nobody knows, you got to tell somebody. Hey, I need to take a shower today because I need to feel like a person. Yeah. So always advocate for your needs. And after your needs are met, advocate for your joy.

**00;24;13;17 - 00;24;30;12**
Like we are more than just people who need to scrape the bottom of survival when we're new parents. Whether you're a new mom or a new dad, you need things that give you joy. Yeah. And they don't have to be big things. They can be small, but just advocate for yourself. Yeah, you have a right to ask.

**00;24;30;12 - 00;24;56;15**
Yes. You have a right. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. A second piece of advice is just get outside with your baby every day. It doesn't matter if it's cold or snowing. Like, put on a coat. Give the baby a hat. A fresh air will do wonders for you. So, get outside. One thing I didn't do with my son that I really wish I would have done is, find ways to not be nap trapped like we talked about earlier.

**00;24;56;15 - 00;25;13;10**
So if you're nap trapped and you hate it, find a baby carrier that works for you and your baby so that you can move, so that you can go on walks and the baby can still sleep on you, but at least you have your hands back. Yes. Or call someone in. Yes, baby. Yep yep yep. And, just a little plug.

**00;25;13;12 - 00;25;33;29**
I may not really fit here, but there's a group called the Twin Cities Baby Wearing, and they teach parents how to use baby carriers in safe and effective ways. Awesome. You can go. The meetups are free. They're really accessible. And I did that a lot with my second born because I needed something that worked so I could still chase my toddler.

**00;25;34;00 - 00;25;56;20**
Yeah, and have a baby sleep on me. You see the name of that one more time that Twin Cities baby wearing. They have community meetups. They have a library where you can rent different carriers. And honestly, it's just it. With my second born now, I've become a big advocate for baby wearing because it really will change your life to have your hands and have two children for sure.

**00;25;56;23 - 00;26;14;25**
Yeah, and it sounds like you also really connected with people who were helpful and supportive and validated what you were going through. So I imagine that would be another thing of like connect with other people. Absolutely. To be supportive, remind you that you're not alone. Yes. Find a community or a good parent. You're a good mom. Yup. Absolutely.

**00;26;14;29 - 00;26;35;04**
Yes. Find community. There's a lot of different things like new mom groups, new dad groups, even through different, parenting resource places. There's therapists you can meet. There's baby meetups at libraries, like, Jeff, just go out and meet people who are in the same stage of life as you are, because you will quickly find you're not alone.

**00;26;35;04 - 00;26;58;17**
Yeah. Like they... there's so many holes. Yeah. Absolute shame goes down. And you got support. Yes. Well I think some people's anxiety has gone down just listening to this. Because you've been a wealth of knowledge for people. This is very understated. Yes. As a and it's very complex. Yes. And it's obviously an intense issue. So a lot of complexity.

**00;26;58;17 - 00;27;23;13**
You obviously have a lot of courage for what you've gone through. You're a good mom. It's very evident. Thank you. And, we appreciate you highlighting what we're trying to do here at Sage Behavioral Health and helping, men, also help their wives, but also women be able to journey through this and not just help them get through this phase of their life and have healing.

**00;27;23;15 - 00;27;47;21**
But I'm guessing it's also helped you even today. You've learned. Oh, yes, oh yes, I have learned so much and I have really enjoyed now being able to teach others. A lot of our friends, through our church community and through other contexts wherein have had babies after us. And I am so grateful that I've been able to support those new parents and tell them, like, hey, you might feel this and it's okay.

**00;27;47;23 - 00;28;08;10**
And if you do, here's what you do. I am so grateful to have had this experience and recovered from it to now be able to teach and encourage others. And if you're feeling what I felt, you're not alone and you can get help. So thank you so much, Rachel. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much I was grateful.

**00;28;08;12 - 00;28;10;24**
Take care everyone. Buh bye.

**00;28;10;27 - 00;28;28;20**
thank you for listening to this episode of Everyday Therapy. We hope you're inspired to apply today's insights to your own life. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode! If you found this podcast helpful, please leave us a review. It helps others discover the show and join our community. See you next session!

**00;28;28;22 - 00;28;37;26**
Everyday therapy is a production of Sagent Behavioral Health, one of the largest behavioral health organizations in the country. To learn more, visit SagentBH.com.