Ep. 160 | The Link Between Anxiety, People Pleasing, and Procrastination

Hello and welcome to another episode of Everyday Therapy. I am Dr. Karen Ryan, licensed psychologist, and I'm here with Brett Cushing, licensed marriage and family therapist. we both work at Sagent Behavioral Health, and we were both chuckling because we are planning this podcast and negotiating, talking about how we're gonna do this and laughing about our own people pleasing tendencies as we are about to talk about people pleasing here today. So, as my shared resident,

People pleaser or People pleaser in recovery in process, right? We're always in process. Like Brett, how would you describe people pleasing? Like, what is that? boy, can I ever describe that? How much time do we have? I I could go in we could do a whole episode just on that. Yeah, twenty-two minutes. And but I'm worried that you know you wouldn't want to do that.

Attuned to how somebody else feels, how they might react, what they're thinking, what they need, and we prioritize that over ourselves and what what do I think? What do I need? What are I what am I feeling? What are my values and opinions? And then what happens for a lot of us with people pleasing is we're so attuned to how other people think and feel and react that we lose sight of and we don't even know.

know anymore, what do I want? What do I feel? What do I need? And it's usually what I call it it's a survival skill we grow up with and we become very good at it. We get rewarded for making everybody happy. Being helpful. Yes. Yes. Yes. So I would say in a in a nutshell that's what people described it really well, right? And I think of it too as like when it's it's really hard to say no. Right? special things that like feel obligated, you know. over apologizing, right? Like almost apologizing for taking up space, or if you ever have a belief that differs or you want something different, it's feeling like you have to like apologize for it, or sometimes it's taking blame for things that aren't yours. But really, I see that as like that piece of sometimes over saying yes to like, sure, I'll do that, or sure, yeah. Can I borrow that? Sure. Can you do this? Sure, yeah. And then realizing after a while, like I'm getting burnt out, right? Yes, and it we call it people please.

And is that really what we're trying to do? Are we trying to please people or are we trying to avoid something else? And I I think it can be both. So then it begs the question, what am I trying to avoid? Yeah. I'm trying to avoid disapproval. I'm trying to avoid rejection. And so we grow up learning that, hey, I'm good at this, making people feel good, and then I don't have to worry about the rejection, the disapproval. And there's all sorts of challenges that come with that.

But that fear and that fear of rejection and disapproval can result in anxiety too. Yeah, yeah. And I I read, you know, recently I I really like this where kindness is rooted in an intrinsic desire, like in a choice of like I want to be helpful or I want to do this. That's kindness. Whereas people pleasing is rooted in like fear or that loss aversion, like you just said, or obligation. And you mentioned this word, and I and I think it's helpful to like highlight again that it can come from a pla it comes from a place of

Survival, right? Because it's it's when we are feeling connected and we're feeling like we're helpful and we belong and we're attuned to that other person and we're helping meet their needs, then we feel safer, like our needs are gonna be met. So it really does come from oftentimes this place of survival, which can sound like, that's so dramatic. We're not being dramatic, we're just explaining where this come from this comes from and how it can become a pattern.

behavior that served us really well and then it sometimes we find it's not serving us so well. And it's hard to distinguish too. It's hard because I really genuinely like people. Yeah. I really do. They drive me nuts and I wouldn't prefer to be with anyone else on this planet than people. I really like people.

And sometimes is it because I really like people or I'm needing something from people. It's hard to distinguish and I have to be very intentional, kinda like on a balance beam, I have to always be paying attention to that because I can lose myself and elevate others, which is not good for me either. Yeah, and you bring up the word like. and it makes me think about how oftentimes there can be the experience that people have, myself included, of wanting to be liked. Right?

Like I like other people, but I at like also have struggled with and want like been working on like you don't always have to be liked. And I have a great example of when this happened. So my oldest daughter was in soccer and she was getting to a like a little more competitive place and she was throwing elbows, right? Appropriately.

And I watched the girls on the team and they were getting like annoyed with her on the other team and then I was observing the parents and they were kinda like, Man, this girl and I lean over to my husband and I say, Man, we gotta tell her to watch her elbows And he goes, Absolutely not. No way, Karen, she is playing awesome soccer and I

Literally put my hands to my mouth like I'm doing right now. It's like, my word, my experience has been I would rather have everybody on that team and the other team like me and lose the game versus have them be mad at me or think I wasn't a fair player. And that's why he was much more successful in sports than I was. And other reasons. But it's it's that piece of like I was feeling really anxious of like they're mad at her, they don't like her, and that was even hard for me to tolerate watching her. But it's that piece of being being liked and how that comes.

from safety and there really can be power annoying like hey it's okay to not always have that be the focus. It's what that I think is a very powerful analogy because it highlights in a very much more trivial manner that like what the cost is. Yeah. And you've heard nice guys finish last and that's kind of what can happen for us as people lose is because we are striving to be liked and it's easy for us to

Because we're good at people pleasing. And I can feel the dopamine release when I get some approval. But who doesn't? Yeah. I mean, we all do. I think we all strive to get other people's A words, their approval and their attention, and their acceptance. And it's not that that's wrong. It's just we have to be very careful that we're not living for that. Right. Because then the downfall is we're never sure if people really like us for who we are. Because if we're always accommodating and meeting where they're at, are they a

True friend or are they not? Do we have the right to take up space and be who we are? And so it's recognizing the the downfalls that are there and how we can kind of get out of those patterns, right? Right. And then what it can result in is a greater sense of anxiety because we it's I can like those things from people, but I don't want to be living for those things from people. And when I'm moving from liking it to living for it, I'm kind of on that performance.

Performance treadmill now too. And I'm only as good as my last mistake. And I for me I found this term years ago. I'm a relational perfectionist. And so there can be kind of this obsessiveness about did I do that okay? Did I say that okay? Am I and all of that now is driven by anxiety, yeah, more than just an appreciation for people. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I think people can probably relate that yeah, this in some degree might be where they're living or they know and are living with somebody who is dealing with this. it can also cause other problems as well when we're living in this kind of anxiety. So let's talk maybe you know, we've been talking how anxiety can show up beyond worry, right? Yeah. and we know from certain data that

Over 30% of adults they experience anxiety and they experience this as a disorder in their lifetime. And so even with the people pleasing, what we can see that's driven by this. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that is the anxiety can present in so many different ways. And this is one way that it can. Like making sure I'm okay, you're okay, we're okay. Right? That's what it sounds like to me, right? Like you're okay, we're okay, I'm okay. Yes. That was a mantra in the eighties when I

Grew up in high school. Really? I'm okay, you're okay, yes. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, and I I think, you know, anxiety, one thing that can happen and the way it presents is irritability. And when we're engaged in people pleasing, because I don't know what I want and what I need and how I'm feeling, I'm sort of suppressing that without even realizing it. And then I have expectations. I'm so good at knowing what everybody else thinks and feels, yeah. And being tried trying to be proactive, which is a nice way of

Saying trying to fix or manage other people, that I expect other people to be able to do that with me as easily as I do with them, and then my expectations aren't met. And slowly resentment can creep in. Yeah. And that can come out with irritability, which can be another manifestation of anxiety. So it does anxiety like this can present lots of different ways. So notice like the the irritability and even being

likable by people is anxiety too. Yeah. Or it can be. Yeah. Yeah. And that resentment that can come with feeling frustrated that that you're being taken advantage of. Or you might have heard used the phrase like, I feel like I'm getting walked all over. And that can happen. Right? If you are always accommodating and always giving, that person will get into that pattern of taking, taking, taking because you're giving, giving, giving. And that's when it's being able to set your own boundaries and say, I'm the one who has to be able to say no at times or work

through that even though it makes me anxious and uncomfortable, it's proving right that I can say no, or this person can be a little annoyed or frustrated or not get the answer they want and we're still okay. Right? Because that's that anxiety of conflict avoidance, fear then that we'll lose the relationship. Yes. And so it's that it's being able to name that and say, hey, like I can give this a shot and see is a relationship okay? Can I tolerate this discomfort and this conflict that happens? There is a book out there.

That a lot of men are finding helpful that struggle with this, and it's called No More Mr. Nice Guy. And I think that's how it feels when we s start to push back and kind of assert how I how we're feeling, what we need. Yeah. It feels like I'm I'm not a nice guy. It feels like I'm being selfish or insensitive. And how tragic is that that we equate that with just good self-care? Yes, yes, and that it's really talking about.

boundaries and by not being Mr. Nice Guy or the nice person, that doesn't mean being disrespectful. That is an acutely different thing. We are not saying be disrespectful and stomp all over the needs of somebody else. What we're saying is make your needs equally if not more important while being respectful to other people.

Yes, it's it's hard to find that balance. Yeah. So it's notice there's a a a lot of fear that drives this anxiety. It results in a fear of conflict. So we tend to avoid conflict with other people. And we're worried about letting others down, so we avoid that. And the presentation of it is just our favorite word is yes. I I I would say yes to people before they're done asking. That's actually I'm not

Even just saying that is so true. Uh-huh. And no just seems so wrong. Yeah. I gave I was an adjunct prof at a school. I was dealing with these seniors in college, and I their assignment I gave them is I said, Okay, when somebody tells you or asks you to do something, yeah, to get an A, I want you to just say no and don't say anything else. And to get a B, you gotta say no.

And you can give your reason. But when you give your reason, notice you're giving other people the power to determine if your reason's reasonable. Yes. And then you get a C if you, you know, give in or something like that. But did they push back that it was mean. That is good. You can't just say no and not give a reason. Mm-hmm. So it was a fascinating thing. We had fun with it and it really highlighted how really disingenuous we are with other people too when we're a people pleaser. Yeah. Yes.

And how sometimes people pleasers need empowerment. So PTA involved mother here and literally had a conversation with my husband. And I was like, I'm not, he's like, just be really thoughtful about how busy you are and what you have time for, you know, being really nice about it. And I was like, yep, I'm literally gonna sit on my hands. I literally sat on my hands at the meeting, and when they asked, I was like, you may not volunteer for anything this round. And I was able to do it, but I I literally had to sit on my hands and you.

Use that of like somebody else can do this. It doesn't have to be you. It's okay not to do it this time. Right. Because we're prone to overcommit. Overcommit. Yeah. My my daughter said this. She said to me we're driving once. She said, Dad, you re you remember the the movie The Incredibles? And I said, Yeah. And she said, You remind me of Mr. Incredible. And now what dad does not want to hear that from their daughter? Uh-huh. Being the good therapist, I am I said rather smugly, Well, tell me about that, Annie.

And she said, Yeah, you know how he's always looking at his watch and saying, Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do that. Yeah, I can do more. She said, That's you. I was like, well, thank you. yeah, it kind of stung me. It was so I never forgot it and highlighted the over committing that we tend to do. Yep. Yep. And what can happen, right, is sometimes when we're in this

people pleasing or in this anxiety loop, what it can weirdly lead to not weirdly, it might sound like it doesn't fit, but we're gonna explain why it does. It can then lead to procrastination. Right? You would think people pleasing you're just gonna jump on it, jump on it. But what a lot of people will find is they can oftentimes find that they're like procrastinating or avoiding certain things because of this like cycle that happens, right? Because procrastination occurs when the task feels emotionally loaded and like or tied to like am I a good person or am I helpful enough?

And so it makes sense when you think about if you have committed to something or agreed to something, but now you're starting to feel kind of burnt out and you're feeling mad about that and you're feeling stressed about it. And then you kind of feel guilty because you're not being helpful and you're not doing it. And then it leads to like, well I'm just gonna avoid this altogether and there goes pattern. Greater stress. Cycle it starts with the stress that we feel and then there's this urge for avoidance of that. Because there's perceived risk that and and notice the what if question

That usually precedes anxiety. Well, there's stress and then avoidance because, well, what if this or what if that? Or what if they they get upset with me? So we go to people pleasing, we get that temporary relief. So no distress, avoidance. Yep. People pleasing gives us temporary relief, but then, as you said, an intensified guilt, and now we have greater stress. But that's okay. We'll just avoid it again. Pretty predictable. Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. And so like what we're recognizing, right, is when if you find yourself like feeling like, my goodness, like they're describing me or I can totally relate to some of these like people pleasing things. I feel guilty if I say no and I feel bad and I'm kinda monitoring what other people are feeling and doing that, like we have some ideas of what might help because we've been working on this, right? Right. Yeah. What are some of your thoughts, Brett, about what you think are helpful for getting out of that pattern and and

in an intentional and thoughtful way, also naming where it comes from. What are your thoughts about that? Well I think it always begins with awareness or mindfulness, aware that this is the pattern.

This is what I'm doing. And I I hope that some people are listening and the light bulb's going on. And there's nowhere to hide. Like, yeah, I can relate to that. And begin to have this sense of awareness that I'm doing that. But also not noticing that I do this, but noticing the ramifications. Yeah. Like I don't want that. I don't want that stress, that avoidance, that fear that's always looming over me. And so we start with that sort of awareness and then acceptance about it. We don't judge ourselves for it.

Because that's really important since we're trying to avoid that judgment from other people. Mm-hmm. We we can't reinforce it by judging ourselves. It's crucial that we just say, Yeah, I do that. Like you and I here probably years ago I would never have admitted this. You know. and so I can admit it and say, Yeah, I I'm working on still recovering. so I think there's it starts with awareness, then we have to have some acceptance about this. And it really does take the pressure off. Yeah. And I when you th say in awareness, what I'm thinking of is you described this at the beginning, Brett, where people who are people pleasers are oftentimes highly attuned to emotions. So you probably have like higher EIQ, emotional IQ. And what that means is you're aware of how other people are feeling. And then what it the the first step then is just really taking that extra second and that extra time to tap in and be like, and how am I feeling? What do I need? And sometimes it's like where is it in my body? What are

my thoughts right now and how am I feeling because oftentimes it's thoughts of like I don't want to do this I need to do this right and I can I I can identify that kind of guilt as I'm thinking about I don't want to do this but if I don't say no I'm gonna feel bad and then that's when I can start cognitively challenging does it make sense to feel guilty about saying no to this or is that tapped into people pleasing or anxiety? So many good things there. Yeah I really I think that's an excellent point. I know

How I can walk into any room and I know pretty accurately how everybody feels in that room except for one person. Yeah. And that's myself. And so I have to get attuned to that. Now one thing I try to do is in as you know, I do DBT, and there's something called the stop skill. Yes. And the one thing I really loathe is having to stop for anything. So stop signs, stop lights, slow traffic, really. Just in general, you don't want to stop.

there and so when I am at a stoplight or a stop sign or if I'm stuck in traffic I try to just

figuratively stop and check in with myself. How am I feeling? What what's my breathing? I notice I as I've done this, I kinda hold my breath a lot more than I wanted to realize. So what's my breathing? What's my heart rate? am I tense? Where are my shoulders? emotionally, what's going on? And so I try to check in with that and just notice that again. There's the awareness piece. And not judge it. And just be very accepting and say, yeah, it makes sense. But by doing that I'm also disrupting the pattern I get into. Of saying yes before they finish answering. Well yeah, yeah. Could you say more about that? I think that's more you know saying more so people can read it. No, and I think it it's really a skill of like taking a beat, taking a pause, taking a stop before you agree to something. So that might be a text comes in and somebody asks something, seriously giving yourself like setting the phone down and thinking about it. Right? It is when you comes in a request comes in that permission to say like I let me just double check my calendar or I gotta think through or figure out a few things first. Even if you can't say no in the moment, even though you know it's a no right. Right? Like intuitively you might be like, I don't want to do this, but I feel like you should say yes. That's when you can take that beat, take that minute and think it through and then do that cognitive work of like I don't need to feel guilty about this. I actually don't have time for this. I'm gonna feel burnt out. Do or do I actually have time and interest? And then it gives you that time

to think about is this a yes or a no. But if you just respond right away, the pattern's gonna be, yeah, sure, okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. And then I can get frustrated and resentful. Yeah. And might come out at other people, but I'm the one that is creating this. I also I'd like what you're saying because that's something I've worked on many years ago, realizing that when I am experiencing a sense of being overwhelmed and stressed, I I'm believing

a lot of times I'm guilty of something. And so this perception of guilt is what drives it. Now a lot of people say guilt is a feeling. I tend to disagree. I think we have feelings like shame that results from a a belief of guilt. Guilt is like like saying I'm pregnant, okay.

That's an objective truth. Either I am or I'm not. I'm with ya. I got you. Yes. I am guilty of something, or I'm not. Yeah, if you think of a court of law, there's either a guilty or not guilty. Yeah. Uh-huh. So my court of law, I'm always guilty. And so you're like, wait a minute, innocent until proven guilty. Yeah, no, I don't live that way as a people pleaser. So what I try to do is it kind of akin to what you were saying, is ask myself, well, okay, am I guilty? Yeah. If if this person didn't respond to my email.

If this person kinda had a curt response, if they had a a look on their face of disapproval, I can believe I've done something wrong, conclude I'm guilty when in fact I'm not. So I ask myself, well, am I guilty of something? Yep. And even if they have a negative aversive reaction, am I guilty? Did I do something wrong?

And the language that comes for me, Brett, then is, and can I tolerate that? And I'll tell you what, now I can. Yes. Right? I can be like, yes I can. And sometimes I'm like, ooh, I don't want to, but I'm working on it. And s but more and more so it's like, and can I tolerate that? Mm-hmm. And it's like, I'm gonna empower myself to tolerate that. I love that. I love there's a phrase, my youngest son. I so appreciate him doing this. He was dating some girl and he didn't respond in the timing and way she wanted on a test.

Yeah. And he I don't know if he told her this, but he said it out loud. He said, Well, sounds like a you problem, you know. And I thought, I love that. Because for me, everything is a me problem. Yeah. And I try to remember that too. It helps. So there's you know, the the pause before saying no. Asking, what have I really done? Am I guilty of something? Being free to be able to say, What? Sounds like a you problem. I I don't need to make that mine. Yes. Yeah.

And one other thing that we talked about as we wrap up here is you had highlighted that in the grade example you said no and then if you give a rationale. And so oftentimes when we're kind of in these patterns, the belief system is I can only say no if there's a good reason I can't do it.

And so I think that is a helpful piece. So as you transition and you're trying to get out of people pleasing, like recognizing that like having a schedule of like, I know I want to do this in the evening. So if somebody says, Hey, can you do this? But you know you wanna read that book or you wanna go for that walk or do that exercise or have dinner with the family, and you think, well, I could do it, that's when I invite you to say, No, right? Like this is a time I had set for myself to do this thing, and then that allows you to meet your needs.

needs in ways that you might not have before. And so it's like treating downtime kind of as an appointment or something that you have scheduled that you don't just keep pushing over. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, as we wrap up, I think what people could do as well to go further with this on their own is learn about boundaries. Because a lot of this is pertaining to boundaries. And boundaries are great. Boundaries allow us to have freedom. I because of boundaries, I can go from New York to California just by little

Painted lines on the ground and colored lights that flash up, I have boundaries or freedom. Yeah. And your office has boundaries. There's walls, there's ceilings, there's floors. And within this, we can say this is Dr. Karen Ryan's office. If these boundaries weren't here, we would never know. Yeah. Where is Karen's office? And what is Kieran responsible for? What is Brett responsible for? Yeah. So we can go further and and learn that when we don't have boundaries, because

Because we're people pleasing, we lose our identity, and you can bring it back by learning this, practicing some of these skills, seeing somebody else talking to a therapist about this be a great thing to do for your relationships, great thing to do for your relationship. We're here to help you through it. We are, yeah. We've we're with you. So, and we're glad you were with us today. Thanks for joining us. Have a wonderful day. We'll see you next time. Take care.