Ep. 148 | Finding ADHD Strengths, Strategies, and Self-Acceptance – Featuring Nathaniel Alin-Churchill, LPCC

Welcome to Everyday Therapy, where simple and practical concepts of therapy meet your everyday life. Hosted by licensed marriage and family therapist Brett Cushing and doctor Karen Ryan, we're here to help you unlock tools and strategies you need to become the best version of yourself. Whether you're looking for guidance, inspiration, anecdotes, or actionable advice, you're in the right place.

Let's dive into everyday therapy.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Everyday Therapy. I am Doctor Karen Ryan and here with my regular co-host Brett Cushing. Licensed marriage family Therapist, and we have a special guest with us, Nathaniel Allen Churchill, licensed professional clinical counselor. And we're so glad you're here. We are agent behavioral Health. We have, new name, new brand, which is very exciting.

Same care, new name. And today, again, we're talking about ADHD. And if you have the chance, we have a podcast previous to this one that talks a lot about the definitions, what that looks like. And this is kind of a continuation of that, but totally fine to listen to as a standalone. And so we're starting with what is the definition of ADHD.

To just get us all grounded in that. And ADHD is attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which is a neuro biological disorder characterized by a persistent pattern of inattention and or hyperactivity impulsivity that interferes with functioning or development. So it's a lifelong thing that happens. It's a neuro biological thing, and that there are different presentations. And we'll talk a little bit about that.

But it's essentially can be just hyperactivity. Impulsivity can be predominantly inattentive or it can be a combine type. And so we're kind of get started here. Welcome, Nathaniel. We are glad you're here. Hello. It's great to be here. How are you doing? I'm I am doing okay. I'm at the end of my work week, so that's great. Karen, you made it, I made it, I did it.

Yeah, well, I'm glad to have you here, too. I have ADHD, so I'm a bit of an authority. I like to think. Yeah, you earned it. And, so you're also. You have ADHD as well. So I feel a little bit like, oh, we're in our own little support group here. And, what got you interested in working with ADHD?

Well, I see, I it kind of was an accident because I, well, about ten years ago is when I got diagnosed with ADHD, and that's like, shortly after I started working with Nystrom and shortly after I started working with what is now agent is, I was, I was working with middle schoolers, and a lot of my youngins who came in were they had ADHD, lots of lots of boys with ADHD.

And so I became sort of an unofficial, I'm not going to say expert, but I started developing my sort of tool kits for them as I was also learning how to manage my own. So that's kind of how I got started into it. I also think about the fact that I, I know in grad school my, my, paper I had to write at the end, there was about male gender roles and all that sort of stuff.

So working Human was very interesting working with, with, you know, dealing with men's quote unquote issues. And ADHD is definitely one of them, because there are a lot of dudes, I think, and I work with them now who have undiagnosed ADHD. And it's actually, we have found it's kind of a relief when they kind of figure that out, that they're like, oh, that's what's going yeah, I think it's a relief because I think for many of us that have ADHD, many people I talk to guilt and shame, anxiety, all kind of are.

We carry around with us because we're so used to tuning out, and then we tune back in and somebody asks us for something and we have no idea. And I just grew up feeling I'm lazy, I'm stupid, I'm undisciplined. And, you know, I always made sure I sat by someone like Doctor Ryan here because I would tune out and daydream about George Washington.

Had a white horse. Well, it's not the white horse. But anyway, the horse that's cool is there? But they have a white horse and. Yeah. And then I tuned back in and the teacher would say, and that's what's on the test tomorrow. And then I'd have panic and anxiety, and I lean over and say to the smart girl, what's the test?

So I think, you know, the really present smarter, just different skill set. But it felt like it was harder. I was dumb. And so that sense of relief I think is so accurate. So what? But yeah. Yeah, right. How old were you when you were diagnosed? I, you know, I officially was not diagnosed until about age 40. Yeah.

So what's to say a number of years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No I, I think speaking to that, the the shame component was something that I was, you know, as we're, we're talking about this so many people really hold that like on to that, that to the point where some of the people I work with who have that diagnosis in their past, they're like, nope, that's not me.

And they just like, that's not who I am. Because like, that title came with so much like baggage, negative associations. Yeah. And having to, you know, constantly dealing with people and teachers and their the help they got at school and they just, they just distance themselves from that even though like they have it talking about, you know, like a personal experience was my, well, my brother had really bad ADHD, had like the combine type, and he was a bit of a delinquent.

And I remember having a conversation with him at one point that I was like, he was like, dude, you have ADHD. And he's like, no, no, no, no, no. It's just like the teacher would be talking about something, but my brain was working on other stuff. I was going so fast and was going that it was like you literally just described ADHD and so and so.

Yeah, there's a lot of that distancing themselves from it. But again, I felt it was a relief when I got I was like, oh, that's why I hate paperwork. I mean, everyone hates paperwork, but I have a yeah, special set and a challenge. Like, yeah, this question of why is this so hard for me? I hear that a lot.

Like everything's not everything, but a lot of things feel just harder. And that can be the case, especially things that require sustained attention. Right. Yeah. It's exhausting. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah yeah. What do you what do you find helps make a little bit of that shift when there's that feeling of like wanting to distance. Is there anything that helps people feel a little bit more like hey I can, I can take ownership of this.

I can feel like I don't this, I don't need to push this away. How do I lean into this and use that to help me thrive? Well in my experience so far, yeah I love that. I have not quite figured that out, but what I do is I use a little or a different language. This is why I kind of love the, you know, neurodiversity and neurodivergent.

And we have, you know, it's like your brain just works different. And that and, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about talking in their language that speaks to their brain. And I have gotten like a lot of reception from that like that, because it's not it feels less pathologizing. It's just like, this is just how your brain is set up.

And yeah, it's not how other people's brains are set up. And they're no fool. They know that. Yeah, they're very aware that they're like, my brain doesn't work like other people's brains. And that's why it always feels like they're speaking a different language to the people around them. Because you appreciate that too, about the pathologizing. And there is, at least in my experience, there's a lot of kind of all or nothing perspective on ADHD.

So there's it's it's bad, you know, it's and so we pathologize it and it's not very dialectically balanced where. Yeah, there are some challenges for certain. And there's some advantages to this too, especially when it's managed and you're able to be able to take medications and things. It can be life changing. That's where some people say it can be a superpower, you know, and some.

But I think with that qualifier, when it's managed. So I appreciate that and subsequent shame that people feel. What about how this can present in different ways? I think people there's this definition creep where they say, oh, you have ADHD because you forgot your keys and things and but it looks differently. Do you have familiarity with different ways of how ADHD can present itself?

Yeah, I the one that really sticks out to me that, and this is, you know, when I do my psychoeducation with the people that I'm working with, the thing that I like to do is say what people neglect is talking about the emotional component of ADHD, that the emotional regulation side is really challenging because emotions like to ride at like 0 to 60 most of the time, because we're talking about it is a it is executive functioning in your executive functioning, and your brain is your brakes and you don't have any, you know, or or they're, you know, they're not a good fit.

Like they, they're little brakes and you have a big truck, you know, like that sort of thing. And, and so talking about, like, I think, I think people pick up on that a lot, there is like, yes, I do feel like an emotional person. Like, I remember I got the label, he's a sensitive boy, you know, like and I was, I was very sensitive.

I would get upset very easily and still like I will notice like, oh, I'm feeling feelings, you know, and like that's what I do now to like manage that when you talk about skills for managing it is a very a name it to tame it approach. But yeah let's see the oh other things you highlight okay.

Yeah. You seen that anything. You know what I'm reflecting on is you know that that part of the executive functioning there is that added challenge of like, we got to build up those breaks. Those breaks are like balanced right, with the needs. But then what I also think of is after you've experienced years of feeling like there's something wrong with you, feeling misunderstood and sometimes struggling right interpersonally, how that plays a role in that too.

So an emotional reaction is about the biological aspect, but it's also about all that emotional learning you've had and oftentimes inaccurate learning, right? Where you have placed blame upon yourself. That is not accurate. Yeah, yeah. Which we come from parents too, because parents well-intended, loving their kids and maybe they have their first child didn't have ADHD.

Their second one does and they're thinking, hey, you're just undisciplined. Why don't you follow through on this? Yeah. Clearly, this is an important to you. You need to be more responsible. And so they're receiving is in validations, or messages from the people they would trust the most to. So it makes it even harder. You know, you it's not like you had a haha moment about other ways.

It was answer. Well, right. Well, talking about all this are like the, the, you know, the negative core beliefs that, you know, maybe a person has developed over time is like, another thing has recently been brought to my attention is the, rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is this sort of sub condition that a lot of people with ADHD experience, they become very sensitized to this, to a sense that they are being rejected or pushed away or, being criticized.

You know, I talked to one person recently. It's about it's like having like, like an exposed nerve that's real sensitive to anyone saying anything that feels like you. They're telling, you know, or pushing you away. And so that I think that in that is that years and years of years of getting this sort of feedback from the world that something's wrong, that why aren't you like the other kids?

Why can't you just do this right. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of a conditioned response. Yeah. I'm only as good as my last mistake anyway. Right. I make a lot of those to begin with. So yeah there's a heightened sensitivity to being invalidated. You know rejected. Yeah. One of my clients was describing to me how she experiences rejection sensitivity just for you.

And we were validating. Nobody likes to be rejected. I mean that's unpleasant for anybody but that it is physically painful like it is physically difficult. And the fear and the discomfort that comes is like beyond. It's like overcoming it. And it like stops her from being able to then function effectively in those interactions. Right. So I think that's a helpful piece of like, how is it different than normal.

Your go to your again rejection. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. You hinted at this a little bit of like what you have heard and what you have learned and experience that you find kind of helpful. And I'm curious, you know, on the podcast here for people who are listening, you know, what might be helpful for them to know?

What have you heard from other people kind of about their experience that might help them say, like, I'm not alone. They get it. Well, Izzy, I think the thing of is gosh it's going through my brain is the thing that I hear a lot is the, we'll talk about skills in there, like, but the problem is I can't even get started on the thing to use the skills.

And it's like, that is an excellent point and problem. And, so things that, so I think it's a big one, I think that's, that's where some self-compassion comes in. It is like, yes, you are fighting your brain because your brain is like, this is neither like interesting nor novel nor challenging. So why would I do it when I could play video games or I could sit here in bed and watch, TV or movie, you know, like that your brain is naturally going to seek something else.

It is going to want to resist doing this task. It does not essentially fuel you. Right. So. Well, yeah, it makes sense if, if and we know people with ADHD, they have even lower neurotransmitters like dopamine. And that really helps with motivation. So let's say the average person has like they're at a three. ADHD is at maybe a zero.

But if I could play video games now oh I've got some energy. Again the difficulty is I don't want to stop playing video games. Right. Because this is stimulating. Right. And I need to be five. And so I was like yes, it finally feels good right? I kind of look at it as a, as you have a sort of, critical mass, you have to get your dopamine up to a certain point so that your body's like, okay, I'm good.

We can do something else now, and if you just have a little bit, you kind of like, you like, touch that critical mass point, but then it just drops and you just keep going. And which is why I explain to people as like, well, that's why they give you stimulants as a, as for medication, so that you can get past that bar, you can get over the bar and you're like, okay, I feel sated.

I can now focus on just the less interesting things and that's okay. Yeah. So yeah. And you highlight feel sated and what research will show you I mean if you ever want to look up MRI scans of individuals with ADHD, I mean that is facts. And then you see once the stimulant medication is in there it is literally fueling you biologically and satiating your brain in a way that is needed that you cannot just will yourself through.

And that is it, I think, a helpful thing to remember. That's such a great point and maybe helpful, for there are people listening who could be a parent. It could be a partner trying to understand this, and it's such a really good thing to underscore that they just can't will themselves into this. And in some ways kind of reminds me of people who are depressed and people tell them, well, just, you know, be happy and it's just you feel it.

Yes. And so but then we, we adjust our expectations and I think that's helpful because someone looks normal. There's no need to understand that they have something underneath the hood here in their brain that is deficient in a way where it's not at the same levels as other people and we don't see that. So we put on them certain expectations, and it's really unfair.

So hopefully people will be able to understand this and, adjust expectations and pull in that compassion. Right, that you refer to. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So thinking about kind of the idea of how do we kind of navigate this, you know, what would you say, Nathaniel, are some techniques, tips that you have found up for that you recommend with clients and you find are more meaningful and are helpful?

Okay. And just navigating this. Well, let's see, I, I got a few and, I have created a list here because I was like, oh, as you probably have all learned, working memory is not great for ADHD. And so, I decided I should probably write some of these are now practicing skills. I am, I am doing it.

I tried not to laugh when you said I have a list.

Yeah. So, the first thing I put here, well, I guess talking about getting started on a thing is being one of the the the bigger problems is that I. I say, well, make a trail of candy for yourself to the task, you know, if it is a literal bowl of candy, fine. Have it sitting next to the thing that you need to be doing.

I know myself if I, if I go home and I work on some things to like, you know, you know, for work, I will have YouTube on the background playing something that's not overly interesting. I don't need to watch it. It just needs I need that extra like stimuli in the background. Otherwise I'm just sort of like everything around me is too boring.

And then my brain starts getting itchy. And and that is, that gets me to thinking about resources out there. Just about anything by like Russell Barkley, he is he is the go to guy. His number one thing, his his book that I point everyone to is, taking charge of adult ADHD, which has like, here are the eight things you need to know about, and and.

Yeah, and some of the things I'm talking about here, he'll, he'll talk about to like, you know, chunking this is another way. Make make it feel approachable. Because I think one of the things that makes a task overwhelming is the ADHD brain tries to do it all at once, as like, no, you can't do it. You can't do that.

You have to do it one step at a time. And so every making every step feel a little bit more approachable makes it easier to start. And I've even done a thing is like break it down to a very silly small step. Like if you have to write a paper, well, the first thing you need to do is put your hand on the mouse.

You know, you've now engaged in the project. You know, open the file. You know, all these things are very doable. You're like, okay, I can do that. You know, and and yeah, you know, some of these things, also is I just watched a thing to give myself a reminder of who this was. So there is, resources out there that I think are really helpful, to also normalize and validate there's so much stuff on YouTube for people, you know, to watch.

Going back to Russell Berkeley, he has this thing that I send to people. It's like 30 essential ideas. You need to know about ADHD. It's like an hour and a half long, and it's been broken into little tiny bite sized chunks, too. Don't worry. Yeah. If you can get through it. There's, How to ADHD by Jessica McCabe.

She has, she has a she has a workbook. She's got a book now. She's got like, a whole bunch of things like that. And then, Caroline Winkler, she's really funny, and she's all about home organization, but she has one episode about her having ADHD and what she does. And again, like, here are the little tips and tricks that she has, in where she talks about, like to engage in something.

It has to be interesting, novel or challenging or urgent for you to do it. And and so I, I just think there's, all sorts of things that are in this sporadic list that I've written, just great, great ideas and resources. Right? Yeah. So, in the spirit of trying to be balanced and not focus on just how challenging this can be, what makes ADHD awesome?

Well, let's say that I thought about that. And, I would say the the big ones are, I think ADHD folk, ADHD are real creative. They're really creative lot. I think it's because of that seeking novelty thing, you know, so they're, they're they're into things that are interesting and new and exciting. And it also gives them the sort of playful nature, you know, a playful nature that I think they maintain through adulthood, which I think is like adults often forget how to play.

And I think they are able to retain a little bit of that. And I think that's a really amazing quality to have. Yeah. Would you argue, because one thing that strikes me about both of you, which I deeply appreciate, is authenticity. And do you feel like that is an accurate thing that people with ADHD experiences like authenticity. I experienced that myself and with other people with ADHD, and I can only speculate, and speak to myself that I find that being authentic is important because I always felt like I had to hide, and I don't.

I sort of reject that. I don't like to play the games, and I just want to be myself. And I've yearned for that so much. And yeah, I think it's just kind of a reflection and a reaction to always having to hide. I resonate. Or do you got any other thoughts? Oh no, I think that's real. I think there's a lot of like, self-reflection that goes on in that sort of figuring yourself out and like, and wanting to be real, you know, with the people around you and the, I think I was fortunate because, like, I was always a little quirky and my family was cool with quirky.

In fact, we sort of all embraced that because we probably all have ADHD. And so, so I was fortunate in that and, and, but yeah, I think I have a lot of things in my life that have me go, like, I going to look deep and I'm going to, and, and in that introspection, in that wanting to be real and true with myself like that, I think it does create that sort of authenticity.

And just being a as real as you can be, and then having genuine responses to others and being real and how you connect and care is what I observe.

it's going to be really hard to manage ADHD and be happy in life.

And that really, I think is tragic because one of the things I, I find with people who have ADHD is they can be a lot of fun and they like to have a lot of fun. And there's a whole lot of great strengths. I saw something on a LinkedIn post. I think I even reposted it, and it showed not just the challenges of ADHD, but all these wonderful strengths that go along with it.

They can be gregarious and creative and fun, and they bring a positive energy and such. So we need to have a very balanced perspective of ourselves. Yes. Yeah. And catching those critical condescending that might be your best friend. Be nice to yourself. Yeah. And shift kind of the way you're thinking about that. Like you're the creative, you're the explorer.

You're the critical thinker. You're the one who's able to come up with ideas because you're not just listening to the rote lecture. Your mind is able to think creatively. And so validating that I think with that too, is that you can get to a point where I've been able to say, I've got ADHD. Yes. And it's very, disarming, like for other people.

And it frees me up because I accept myself. Yeah, I like myself. And there are people who don't have the same kind of brain as I do, and they have strengths and weaknesses or challenges as well. So, yeah, I think it's good just to say, yeah, I've got this. Yeah, there's some really great things about it. And the interpersonal nugget of if you find yourself distracted or somebody says something and you've lost track, that person is not going to be mad at you if you look at them in the eye and say, oh, I'm sorry, I was just zoned out for a second there.

Could you say that again, please? Right. Just put it. Yes. And that's really speaks to sincerity too, because I think people with ADHD sincerely really want to do well, be successful. They there's great intention to connect with people, especially their partners. And if they say just own and say, yeah, I checked it out for a second. Yes. Can you say that again?

Yeah. What's kind of fun is I have clients that do that and they'll say, I have no idea what you just. Yeah, that's great. I love that they can advocate for themselves that way. And then it stops the person who's checked out from worrying. I just checked out. Did they notice? Did I catch everything? Did I miss something?

Because then when you can directly assess it, it quiet those worries, thoughts. The pressure's off. Yeah, yeah. Well, we covered a lot. Well, you know, we could probably talk about this for another two hours here, but we hope you took some nuggets out of this. Yes. And if you have ADHD, you might have forgotten and tuned out so you can listen again.

And we're glad you can do that. And glad you all joined us. So look forward to connecting with you again soon. I'll.

thank you for listening to this episode of Everyday Therapy. We hope you're inspired to apply today's insights to your own life. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode! If you found this podcast helpful, please leave us a review. It helps others discover the show and join our community. See you next session!

Everyday therapy is a production of Sagent Behavioral Health, one of the largest behavioral health organizations in the country. To learn more, visit SagentBH.com.